Interview with Jean Phillipe Saby of Famille Saby - Part 1

Anshu: 

Hello, and welcome to the Wineitupanotch Podcast, a podcast where we talk about wine, life and everything in between. My name is Anshu Grover, I'm your host, and I am so thrilled that you've decided to join me today. Thank you so much. 

If you are listening to this podcast in your earbuds, that's fantastic.

But this particular podcast episode is also available on YouTube. So if you're watching on YouTube, hello, and if you're not, you can always go check out this podcast episode on YouTube. We're definitely planning to put more podcast episodes onto YouTube as we move forward. And we are in season two right now, which is so exciting.

Our very first episode this season is a really great one. Today I am bringing you a podcast interview with proprietor and winemaker Jean Philippe Saby from the Bordeaux region of France. Now Jean Philippe and I met in a sort of serendipitous way, if you will - I'll get into it in the podcast episode in a moment -  but I just really loved his energy and I loved what he was sharing about his philosophy and he's got a lot of knowledge and experience, very well steeped in the Saint Emilion. region on the right bank of Bordeaux. And I just felt strongly that I wanted to bring him onto the podcast and share what I had learned from him with all of you.

Now this is going to be a two part episode, so get ready. Here we go with part one and I will bring you part two soon. So with that, let's switch over to the podcast episode with Jean Philippe Saby. Take care guys.

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Anshu:

Hello and welcome to the Wineitupanotch Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me, Jean Philippe. I really appreciate it.

I want to first start just by letting everybody know how we know each other. 

I'm sitting in Toronto, you're sitting in Bordeaux - you're gonna tell us a little bit more about that - but the reason that we have come to know each other and why we're spending this time together is because I was writing a research paper for my WSET Level 4 Diploma, and it was on sustainability in Bordeaux.

And I had recently tried one of your wines here in Toronto.

[00:02:00] 

Which I really enjoyed. We'll talk a little bit about your wines, but I reached out and said, you know, I've noticed that your family has a commitment to sustainability. Would you be willing to talk to me a little bit about it?

And for the listeners, I think it's important to share that you reached right back out to me right away and said, “I would love to talk to you about my family's approach to the land and how we're committed to making sure that we are, um, you know, taking care of our land”. 

And you were so generous with your time. You spent over an hour with me. I was actually in Paris at the time when we had the conversation, um, and shared so much fantastic information with me, which did make it into my paper. 

But I also thought it was really important to share with the listeners because I think one, you've got a fantastic family story. Two, you're working in the business directly. So I'm really excited to share some of that information. But three, I think more and more we're all (as consumers and producers and landowners) becoming a lot more concerned with sustainability. So I think it's a really important topic “du jour”, and I’m really excited to explore it with you! 

But before we get going, let's start with you telling us a little bit about yourself. So, you know, where did you grow up? Who are you, where did you go to school? What do you do today?

Jean Philippe:

I am Jean Philippe Saby. I am 48 years old. I live in Saint Emilion, in Saint-Laurent-des-Combes, which is a very small town, small village, only 210 inhabitants, not far from Saint Emilion  - less than one kilometer far from Saint Emilion. I live there from the beginning because my family, uh, has been in the wine business in Saint Emilion since the beginning, before the French Revolution, I guess.

And, so it's just my life. I was born in Saint Emilion and, uh, I know exactly where I will have my last breath on earth because I will stay and I will try to make it possible, um, to stay in this wonderful landscape and wonderful way of life.

 [00:04:00] 

I was quite good at school, in fact, and I study, um, in general degree with my baccalaureate and, uh, I started to study agronomic engineering in a very premium high school, and, in the last year, when I was, 20 years old, 21 years old, I specialized in enology and passed the degree of enologist and agronomic engineer too.

In fact, I always knew that I will work in my family business, since the beginning.

So after my degree of enologist, I've tried to find a job outside my family business. I start working to Chateau Margaux in Margaux during one year, but, I decided to come back in my family business because so many things to do, so many challenges. Also, the evolution of the estate too.

It was just right on time for me to start my challenge, with my family, at this time. And, it was not possible for me to find the wine world outside my family. But, I don't regret it. 

Anshu: 

So how long have you now been a winemaker? Officially? 

Jean Philippe:

So officially, I started in 2000. I worked with my brother since the beginning. And, uh, yeah, we start with 30 hectares and now we have, uh, 82 hectares, 84 hectares.

So it was a big movement, a big evolution and a big change, in everything. but we still try to keep the same spirits of the running estate. 

Anshu:  

Now, your brother and yourself are ninth generation winemakers. Is that right? Winemaking has been in the family for that long. So tell us a little bit about the family history. 

[00:06:00] 

Originally we are inhabitants from the center of France, east of the Massif Central. But it was before the French Revolution, in 1775, we have papers for the first registered plot my family bought in Saint-Laurent-des-Combes in the same place, same area. 

And the evolution was at the same degree since the end of the 19th century. And it moved a lot after the beginning of the 20th Century. 

Since then, my family was pluri-agricultural workers with vines, with wines, cows, wheat, and many, many different things, and also stone extractor. 

Since my great grandparents, all the plateau you see there are the limestone plateau, and the limestone plateau were extracted [to make] stone for building, wall, house, everything and particularly Bordeaux City, uh, are built thanks to that. 

And then, after the beginning of the 20th century, we had a big evolution of the wine industry. 

First of all, the mechanical revolution, which permit my family to join two estates and to double the size of the estates, thanks to weddings, in fact! 

And at the same time, Saint Emilion appellation decided to bottle at the estates, all the wine at the Appellation. So this evolution made them adapt the family business in order to be higher in quality. 

Then my father decided to [become] one of the first enologists, in the 60s. And it changed the type of wine with a lot of improvement. 

[00:08:00] 

You know, before enology, in France and all around the world, wine could be good, very good, but also sometimes very bad with disease and flavor disturbance.

At this moment, at this time, it was very important for the security of the quality, to have a consistency in the quality.

Our generation, as enologists, we were more in the improvement of the quality -  for sorting leaves, green harvest, uh, certain type of maceration, over ripeness, you know, different things to improve the quality and to find another way to make the wine very, very high in concentration and complexity.

Anshu:  

Is it fair to say that your dad brought quality to a certain level with consistency and certain practices, and now you are able to take that even further with experimentation and using the best technologies and you can focus on expansion because he already got it to a certain level?

Jean Philippe:

It's not only the story of my family, but it's also a general speaking for all the Bordeaux region.

 Anshu: 

Okay. Gotcha. And so do you and your brother make all the wine today? Are you the primary winemakers or do you have a team? Because we're going to talk a little bit about how large your holdings are. So are you primarily making all of the wine yourself today? 

Jean Philippe:

My brother and I, we are quite different. 

My brother is a vine grower. He likes to be in the field, in the plots. He likes to see the evolution of the vines, the evolution of each plot and what kind of decision he can make at the right time. 

For me, it's a bit different.

I like to be more in the cellar and also more in the market. I like to explain and to present and to sell the wine so we are quite different but also very, you know, complementary.

The final blending of each different growth we make, that's very important to be two brothers. 

[00:10:00] 

 Anshu: 

Very nice. And what is your approach to vinification - do you vinify by plot? Do you vinify by vineyard? Obviously by grape, you would probably vinify separately. So, do you have sort of a philosophy at Famille Saby? 

Jean Philippe:

The philosophy is to……it depends. It's quite weird. In fact, we know certain terroir we have, uh, we know that we are not so important than the terroir. And as enologist or winemaker, you have to realize and to be very conscious, very aware that you are not the boss in this place. So not to overreact, not to overdo things, not to over prune the vine, not to over sorting, not to over green harvest, not to over extract, not to wait too long the harvest moment. not too over oaked, very humble. Try to keep the maximum of the terroir, [let it] express themselves and try to stay at the….

 Anshu: 

You're like a backstage player.

Jean Philippe:

On the back, on the background, That's 40% of our production. 

For another 30%, the winemaker and the vine grower, my brother and I, are part of the terroir. We are part of the terroir. That's why I said the terroir is also the weather, the soil, and the knowledge of the human being.

If you decided to harvest this plot than another, at this time, and why this vintage you decide to be opposite? Uh, this is your decision and, in certain terroir, this is absolutely fundamental and compulsory to make the right decision. 

[00:12:00]

For the first 40% of the terroir, it doesn't matter, you can decide whatever you want. The soil and the terroir will be stronger than you. For the other 40%, we are very proud when the vintage is difficult. When the conditions are so weird, so unique, so exceptional, and, so, uh, difficult, we are very proud to make a great wine in such difficult conditions.

Because without us... It will not be possible at all. This part of the portfolio is very strategic for us because we know that without us and we without our experiences it will not be possible. 

For the remaining 30%, it's important to have a great terroir. It's also important to have a massive technique to make wine. Also, investment in the barrels, in the hand pickers, and the technology…. you will reach another stage to the quality, the complexity and the concentration of the wine. Which is not possible without a very strong commitment and investments. I mean, 30% -  it's a bit too high. Uh, if I can correct myself, it must be 20% - 20% of the production needs to have a massive investment and commitment. 

Anshu: 

I mean, I've heard it said that really everything starts in the vineyard, so it's the quality of the land and the quality of the fruit, right? 

Jean Philippe:

Yeah, everything. Everything. It depends on the vintage, obviously. But, if you have a great vintage, I mean, sometimes it's a bit boring because a great vintage, uh, doesn't need a great vine grower.

Where's the challenge? 

If you have a great vintage, you don't need a great vine grower. And sometimes it's a bit boring.

Anshu: 

That's hilarious! 

Okay, so that's really fascinating what you've shared with us there And I think you said you own - I thought the number was 70 hectares, but is it 80 hectares of land that you now own? 

[00:14:00] 

Jean Philippe:

Yeah it's a brand new evolution for our business. [There are] the three different ways of growing your estates and your vineyards. 

First, you marry a wife with vineyards. This was a case, up to my grandparents.

My' parent generations, you had the second way, which is inheritance. We inherited from a great uncle with no children and we had, uh, a wonderful estate, in Saint Georges-Saint Emilion. 

And now we found another way is to find investors who are keen on having vines, but they don't want to manage all the matters, all the problems, and they just are landlords, on the small plots and they give us to manage it, as a farmer. So it's another way to grow my family business. 

Anshu: 

So is it fair to say then that there's some land you own yourself, you're working that land, and other land you're effectively working the land for somebody else. They're the landlord, but you're effectively taking care of that land. 

Jean Philippe:

Yeah. We rent that land. And particularly in Saint Emilion. In Saint Emilion, vineyards is huge - it's 5,600 hectares but it's very expensive. 

When the price is too high, it's very difficult to grow, and sometimes you need to grow because it's the way it is but on the other hand, you don't have to organize your business in a very dangerous way. 

If financially, your investments are too high and too strong, you will not be able to run the estates. That's not possible. 

So it's the junction between people who have lots of money and they want to find a very stable asset with a sort of fun distraction to have their name in the bottle as the owner in Saint Emilion, but, at the same time, grow and, find, a good size for my business.

 [00:16:00]

Anshu: 

Fascinating! 

Now, you've mentioned a couple of times the multiple estates and I have a list here, but I would love for you to take us through your various estates, where they're located, some in Saint Emilion, some sort of around. Can you just take us through that? 

Jean Philippe:

So we have 40 hectares of Saint Emilion Grand Cru - 40 hectares in Saint Émilion Grand Cru means 70 different plots in all the area of Saint Emilion, which is huge, and, with all different type of terroirs you can find, gravel, limestone, plateau, slopes, uh, everything. So at the end, you have a mosaic of terroir, which is wonderful when you are a winemaker, making wine, not vine grower. Vine grower is a mess because you have to be focused on the evolution of each plot you have so it's quite a mess! But, in the cellar, it's wonderful because it's like you are, uh, an artist of, uh, of painting. And, you can find the final blend. you can dream, You will always find the good combination of, Cabernet Franc, of Merlot, of sand, of gravel, of limestone, enough acidity..... 

Anshu: 

It's almost like different colors of paint to play with or pieces of Lego to put together, right? To create something. 

Jean Philippe:

Yeah. Yeah. And each time is a new deal. Each vintage is a new deal. You never, never, ever know what kind of final blend you can have for one vintage.

Chateau Rosier, for instance, in Saint Emilion Grand Cru, uh, you can have, 95 percent of Merlot when it's really sunny, uh, uh, when it, when it's rainy and, uh, and cloudy, uh, in, in, in summer. to have your maximum of ripeness with the Merlot. But, next vintage will be maximum of Cabernet Franc, who brings you maximum of acidity, maximum of freshness.

[00:18:00]  

So, you blend it, you blend it with old vines, young vines, a small proportion of pressed wines….so it's a very complex science. And you have to taste, try to taste and re-taste to find a good combination. Always, it's always the case. Uh, that's, uh, that's, uh, very important. 

But on the other hand, as I explained, the 30% where the terroir is stronger than you, you will have always the same blend. Every, every, every vintage, uh, every vintage. Uh, whatever the condition it is, the terroir will find always the good balance, the good combination with acidity and tannin. it's quite weird, in fact, and particularly when you have an homogenous terroir, even if it's 28 acres, for instance, in San George or in Montagne (Saint-Emilion), it's very homogenous, but…..

Uh, if you need acidity, the terroir will give it to you if you need ripeness, the terroir will supply enough ripeness. You have to, to trust, in the terroir. 

Anshu: 

So we talked about Chateau Rosier right? 

Jean Philippe:

Also, in Ontario we have a very nice wine called Chateau Hauchat. In fact, Chateau Hauchat is a fronsac and I guess maybe 90% of the production is released in Ontario. 

It's a Fronsac. It's 100% pure Merlot, and the vineyard is pure Merlot. It's limestone and clay, very homogeneous. 

[00:20:00]

As I said, the terroir and what we do is to, how can I say, to, to manage this, this power to a very pleasant and accessible wine, funny wine for the customers. That's a good challenge too!

And also, it's a good example for me to explain that as a wine grower, as a winemaker, you always need to know where the wine you produce is going. It's very important.

We produce the wine we like, but you have to please the private customers, the final customer. That's more important than yourself at the end. 

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Anshu: 

And there you have it - that’s Part 1 of my interview with Jean Philippe Saby. Some pretty insightful comments he made there, wouldn’t you agree? Be sure to come back for Part 2 soon! Cheers guys!